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User talk:PSGarak

From Fallen London Wiki

Welcome[edit source]

Hi, welcome to Fallen London Wiki! Thanks for your edit to the CommentStreams:8deda8159ebde340029511b9930b91c7 page.

To find out more about how to contribute to the wiki, please visit Editing Guidelines. Check out the Quicklist page for a quick reference to rewards and icons.

Happy Editing!

P.S. Please leave a message on my talk page if I can help with anything else! -- Alan (talk) 16:51, 22 March 2021

Wiki Feature Request: Semantic MediaWiki[edit source]

Hi all,

I would like to recommend the Semantic MediaWiki (SMW) extension for use on this site. I have some proposals for how we can use it and the benefits it would provide.

Extension info: https://www.semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/Semantic_MediaWiki

What it does[edit source]

tl;dr Property graphs!

SMW adds some features to the data model for the wiki. There are three main features this brings:

  1. Define relationships that pages can have with each other. "Vanilla" MW basically only has the "member-of-category" relationship. SMW makes this extendable.
  2. Pages can have properties or attributes defined in wikitext.
  3. Pages can include content populated from queries against the above.

Proposed Use Cases[edit source]

Tame the combinatorial explosion of categories[edit source]

Any given Quality can have several Categories all to itself: Use, Challenge, Text Use, Source, Loss, etc. Despite having so many categories, there are still limits on expressivity (e.g. Locks vs Unlocks). And because each category is bespoke, there are no automatic relations between categories, which limits discoverability. E.g. the page for a Quality X does not include any way to discover the X Text Uses category.

SMW would let us represent this structure formally, and make use of it better. So instead of a page belonging to the "Brawling with Dockers Text Uses" category page, it would have a "Text Uses" link to the Brawling with Dockers page. And the "Text Uses" would universally be a sub-property of uses, rather than having to specify that relation for each "X Text Uses" category.

De-duplicate Data Stores[edit source]

The IL and ItemList modules duplicate content that's already on the page, because pages can't have attributes. SMW resolves that, letting other pages query content directly rather than needing to manually keep a second database up to date. I probably don't need to belabor the point that having to do everything twice in two different places is burdensome.

Simplify Code for Calculators[edit source]

A good fraction of the thorny Lua code on the Wiki site seems to be for filtering and sorting tables of items for the calculators. It's not strictly a benefit to be replacing one niche language for an even more-obscure one, but my gut is that using a data query language for querying the data is probably simpler and more easily maintained.

Better Data Presentation[edit source]

Basically every current use of the "CategoryTree" display is an opportunity to provide more info to readers of the wiki. Properties can be extended with extra data, so e.g. the quantity for Source or Loss properties, or the Difficulty for challenges. Supplementing CategoryTree-type lists with this data would make things much more useful.

Summary[edit source]

If other editors are interested in this, I'm willing to take point on figuring out how to put it into practice. I'm a sucker for graph datastores, and I've already spent some time daydreaming about what this might look like for Fallen London. Most or all of this can be accomplished with under-the-hood modifications to the existing templates that we use for everything. I'm happy to discuss details or trade-offs before committing to anything.

Any changes to existing functionality would be shown in a sandbox and vetted before being rolled out. I'm not sure what the performance impacts might be, but my naive understanding is that we might actually get a benefit out of it. We currently make heavy use of CategoryTree, which is an "expensive" function, whereas SMW seems to be optimized for the types of things we try to make CategoryTree do. PSGarak (talk) 19:08, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Technical Side[edit source]

This sounds like a worthwhile endeavour! Though it would require a lot of work, haha.

I'm uncertain about the resource consumption of SMW – I'll put it on dev.fallenlondon.wiki in the next few days (and will reply when I do) so editors can play with it if they'd like.

I have seen Cargo mentioned as an alternative data storage system, though I haven't done the necessary research into it. Alan (talk) 20:07, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Welcome to Fallen London Wiki![edit source]

Hi, I'm an admin for the Fallen London Wiki community. Welcome and thank you for your edit to Bessemer Steel Ingot!

If you need help getting started, check out our help pages or contact me or another admin here.

Please have a look at our Editing Guidelines for some important information on editing the wiki.

Enjoy your time at Fallen London Wiki!
FANDOM (talk) 19:23, April 12, 2020 (UTC)

Search the Cloud 2[edit source]

Hi, I noticed tha you removed the standard success from the branch and left only the miniature ship one. Are you confident that is accurate? This suggests that *every* time you manage to get airs of parabola to 95+ you are guaranteed a miniature air ship. I haven't been lucky myself but report from Discord suggest that's not the case and the miniature ship is a rare result even if you have 95+, with steel being the normal success...
Mikey thinkin (talk) 19:39, May 3, 2020 (UTC)

Faction Templates[edit source]


I've recently created Templates for the Faction pages. As there however was some discussion about how they should look and their potential impact I've decided to put it up to the Community how they should look at User blog:Asarta/Faction Templates. Any contributions you could make would be greatly appreciated!

Asarta (talk) 15:07, July 5, 2020 (UTC)

Lacre[edit source]

apparently I'm not the first to make that mistake

Gave me a laugh :D
Cactusorange (talk) 21:24, September 19, 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I felt a little silly when I saw the revision history. 
PSGarak (talk) 13:05, September 21, 2020 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure I did something very similar on another page too. It happens
Cactusorange (talk) 14:54, September 21, 2020 (UTC)
Welp, looks like someone’s actually doing it.
PSGarak (talk) 04:05, December 9, 2020 (UTC)
This sounds like it’s about converting ToL to Discrete but between this and the aforementioned revision history I’m now unsure if I was mistaken to do so or if y’all just didn’t want to deal with all of the edits that required.
Mzs42 (talk) 13:28, December 9, 2020 (UTC)
It’s the latter! I was trying to do some maintenance, but decided that was too much to bite off at once. And at the time I also wasn’t 100% sure there were no change points, and didn’t have the opportunity to test. But I’m glad someone’s doing it now that we’re in the holiday season!
PSGarak (talk) 15:01, December 9, 2020 (UTC)
Oh, good. Phew.

If you know of any other needed cleanups that are being put off because they require a bunch of edits, I’d love to be informed. I occasionally get in a mood where I just want to do that sort of work for a little bit and it’s nice when I have a useful outlet for it.
Mzs42 (talk) 21:53, December 9, 2020 (UTC)
When I get that type of mood, I go to Category:Site_maintenance to find something to use it on.
PSGarak (talk) 01:33, December 10, 2020 (UTC)

Found a Way to Transclude Table in Between Fields of Action Template[edit source]

Firstly, thanks for your work on Diving in the Magistracy page. That’s how I discovered the following.

I noticed that if the programmer makes a call for a template in between in the fields of another template, that called template will be displayed before the page returns to processing those fields.

You can see this in Persuade His Amused Lordship.
Rostygold (talk) 08:33, October 21, 2020 (UTC)

You mean the table in the Challenge Information? That’s not in-between fields, it’s just part of the Challenge Information field. Arguments to a Template field are allowed to have multiple lines, and the linebreaks are included as part of the arguments. (Leading & trailing newlines are stripped from named parameters, but not positional parameters, and parser functions may behave different.)

The actual issue with including tables inside templates is the pipe character. A table uses pipes to delimit cells, but if a table is defined inside a template, the pipes are treated as delimiting new arguments to the template rather than delimiting table cells. You can solve that by either using the {{!}} template to generate all of your pipe characters, or transcluding the table. I’ve been working on a template to build all the table bits, but as you found out, you can also just transclude a whole table, which never occurred to me. It sure cleans up the page code a fair bit.
PSGarak (talk) 17:08, October 21, 2020 (UTC)
It doesn’t work on the description field though - likely due to the scripts on counting characters causing problems.
Rostygold (talk) 01:55, October 22, 2020 (UTC)
To elaborate, I can’t place template calls before or after the description field. I think that the QuoteSummary template is preventing this from happening, specifically the lines that call the Truncate templates.
Rostygold (talk) 02:13, October 22, 2020 (UTC)

Speak with Beatrice about Furnace[edit source]

I’m not sure the text can vary with Discovered: the Need for Hellworms, since if I’m reading the wiki right you can get that quality but still decide to lay the rails through Parabola. So it seems more likely to me that it varies with just the Train through Parabola quality at 0 or 1.
Cactusorange (talk) 21:11, November 15, 2020 (UTC)

Is that actually true? I assumed they were mutually exclusive but I chose the Parabolan route from the get-go, so I can’t confirm for sure.

The Wiki may not be 100% reliable here, since the Hellworms quality is hidden. If the Parabolan route is locked by it, it may not be recorded. We should seek confirmation from a player who took that route.
PSGarak (talk) 02:27, November 16, 2020 (UTC)
I took the Hellworms route. While I didn’t look at any hidden qualities myself I’m fairly confident the wiki is right on this – that there’s a hidden quality that unlocks the Hellworms plan when you try to go straight up the mountain. After I tried going up the mountain and that choice was revealed as impossible, I had the choice of Parabola or Hellworms.
Cactusorange (talk) 02:47, November 16, 2020 (UTC)
(It might be possible that going through with the Parabola route removes the Hellworms quality, but I don’t see any reason it would.)
Cactusorange (talk) 03:00, November 16, 2020 (UTC)
If you’ve actually seen it, then I’ll defer to your experience. The idea that they were mutually exclusive was just an assumption on my part.
PSGarak (talk) 03:58, November 16, 2020 (UTC)
No worries! I’ve reverted the change (but added links to the two relevant paths).
Cactusorange (talk) 17:46, November 16, 2020 (UTC)

Courier Table[edit source]

It’s not London airs, it’s a hidden airs which doesn’t seem to be used anywhere else. So I’m not sure if your added entry has got the right numbers.
Cactusorange (talk) 13:26, December 20, 2020 (UTC)

That would explain why my Airs of London was 16, and I was seeing text listed for Airs 35. I’ll fire up the old network tab and see what’s going on.

[edit] That definitely looks like a quality that was meant to stay hidden. But it has fitting art, which is more than I can for some other hidden Airs values.
PSGarak (talk) 18:45, December 20, 2020 (UTC)

Single pages versus multiple pages[edit source]

Hi, I saw that you changed https://fallenlondon.fandom.com/wiki/Lay_track_through_hilly_land_and_keep_your_workforce_well_fed_(After_Stoppage)?redirect=no# from an independent page into a redirect. Why did you do this? Two separate pages seems a lot clearer to me.
Asarta (talk) 08:00, January 25, 2021 (UTC)

The Next Stretch of Track page was too long. I was driven to make the change because we finally started getting template errors, but I’ve been dissatisfied with that page for a little while now. I just feel like there’s too many pages with content that’s 90% the same.

Personally I think it’s more clear, because the information I’m usually interested in is the comparison between similar options. And a single page makes it easier to find which information applies to me, because the difference is in the content itself rather than trying to find the relevant page. But if you think the separate pages are more clear, I’m open to persuasion.

I’m hesitant about merging the similar pages through grassland, because the text variation is complicated. And that means we’re not consistent between the hills & plains. But we’re inconsistent elsewhere as well: The tracks to Ealing use consolidated pages, and the tracks to Jericho do not.
PSGarak (talk) 14:32, January 25, 2021 (UTC)
Yeah the original reason I asked was because someone over on Discord got confused because they only read the titles, not the rest of the content and therefore thought that Hills wouldn’t trigger the strike. I’m also not really sure of an alternative however and I do like the consolidated pages. Only other option I see is splitting the Next strecth of Track into multiple pages but that wouldn’t work well either I think
Asarta (talk) 14:39, January 25, 2021 (UTC)

Refactoring the Best in Slot Calculator[edit source]

Thanks for cleaning up the template! I really appreciate it. I took a look earlier today but got stuck. Evidently I need to brush up on parser functions. 😅
Alanhuang122 (talk) 03:27, March 9, 2021 (UTC)

I hope you don’t have to! Working with those features feels needlessly complex, workarounds stacked three layers deep to deal with issues caused by the previous workarounds. The root issue is that wikitext isn’t evaluated in an XML tag, which the forms use.

But it was all worth it for the satisfaction of a changelog that dropped the page size by 75%.
PSGarak (talk) 16:34, March 9, 2021 (UTC)